I need to vent.
Over at Shapely Prose, one of the few Fatosphere blogs I read regularly and which offers consistently thought-provoking posts and discussions, everyone's
up in arms about the Chris Brown/Rihanna thing that's been in the news this week. I think this week. I've only ventured out into the world about three times since I had breast reduction surgery last Monday. Oddly enough, I haven't caught much news - maybe because my sleep patterns have messed up my TV viewing. But I digress.
I've become embroiled in the discussion about domestic violence, and although I've tried to post level-headed responses, I've been called a troll, and I think I've been banned. I guess that's what you get for pointing out inconsistencies. But it ticked me off so bad that I had to come over here and break it down. (I'd post it there, but like I said, I think I'm banned.)
Side note: I used to think I was a feminist, but after growing up and reading ALL of Ephesians 3, I've realized that there are differences between men and women. Physiological, psychological, etc. My understanding of feminism is that women are equal to men in everything. Period. Keep that in mind as you read this statement that I posted on that thread:
I think there’s a double-standard here. When two guys beat up on each other, it’s considered normal - “guys will be guys.” When girls beat up on each other, it’s considered titillating - “cat fight!”. But when “guys are guys” and beat up on women, there’s all sorts of outrage.
This totally goes against my understanding of feminism. If women are equal to men, then why the big deal about a woman getting beat up by a man? Shouldn’t she be able to stand up for herself and give as good as she gets? I mean, women are no longer the weaker sex, right?
*Disclaimer* I don’t think ANYONE should beat up on anyone else. Also, I understand how years ago women didn’t have ways to escape domestic violence situations because of financial constraints. That’s changed now, hasn’t it? So many households are headed solely by women that it wouldn’t be strange for a woman to set out on her own to escape an abusive partner.
Response to that was all sorts of swearing and telling me to leave. One poster stuck up for me, but she was shooed out the door pretty vehemently too.
I let a day lapse and gathered my thoughts into what I thought was more coherence and posted this:
I knew what I posted would tick off many of the readers here. I didn’t realize how verbally abusive* you would get, but I should have expected it. What I said about “guys will be guys,” etc., was a comment on the common attitudes I’ve seen on many different online forums and in the media. I’m surprised none of you agreed, but then, maybe you don’t read mostly male-frequented sports forums and the comments sections on news reports. Isn’t the point of Sanity Watchers warnings to alert SP readers to such statements? I was hoping we could have some intelligent conversation about those attitudes and how to counter them, but it didn’t happen.
Violence is wrong at all times - if you want proof of my belief in that, all I can say is that I’m a pacifist. I understand how hard it is to control one’s self and emotions. I can’t imagine how hard it must be for men to control their tempers with testosterone added into it. However, they MUST control their tempers and actions. ALL of us must control our tempers and the resulting actions. Why? It’s the default setting for society.
That’s why there should be equal outrage when someone - regardless of gender - beats up on another person - again, regardless of gender. However, society and media haven’t caught up to that. Things haven’t improved much for women since the cavemen dragged their women by their hair back to their caves.
I haven’t read everything about the Chris Brown/Rihanna affair, but if the media is following true to form, a lot of what has been “reported” comes from a desire to know all the intimate, gory, gossipy details, totally shrugging off the seriousness of domestic violence. I would think a situation like this would provide an excellent springboard for a united voice against domestic violence, not just on an Internet forum, but in the media.
*I’m surprised that verbal abuse is tolerated here, considering that so many of us have been verbally abused about our size, skin color, etc., and bear the emotional scars to prove it. “Sticks and stones may hurt my bones, but words can never hurt me” is patently untrue. Verbal abuse is a significant part of domestic violence. How many of you, if we were having this conversation in person, would have lashed out at my previous comment with your fists instead of, or alongside, your words? The propensity to violence - verbally or physically - is inherent in ALL of us, male or female, man or woman.
I realize now I should have said that I was surprised that the commenters were upset at me for pointing out what seems to be the common attitude in the media. I mean, they're constantly complaining about the media, so I don't get why they were upset at me for pointing it out. "Shoot the messenger" and all that, maybe?
Anyways, people flipped out about what I said about the propensity to violence. One of the ones who actually took me seriously and attempted to engage me in discourse is Anita:
Anita, on February 26th, 2009 at 6:49 pm Said:
Rhonwynn, can you explain this?
“Why? It’s the default setting for society.”
The default setting for society actually appears to be domination, abuse, war, and suffering (see last 3000 years of history.) That’s part of the problem, actually.
I think the big difference for me between man-woman violence is that is it institutionalized oppression. It reinforces power structures that keep women down and terrorized (communities of women, not just those struck) in a way that man-man violence doesn’t. (And, of course, there’s exceptions: see lynching, war, etc. But in terms of, say, bar fights, the long term social ramifications of such are minor, compared to man-woman domestic violence situations.)
Which is why while all of us don’t want people hitting people, it’s worthwhile to make special note and observation and pay special attention to those cases where violence is extra-specially icky. (See also: hate crimes, rape culture.)
I also think that while many comments were strong (even harsh), it’s crossing a line to imply that those who objected to your dismissive tone and words would have followed up with actual violence.
To which I replied:
Anita -My comment about society’s default is based on two things: the laws in the U.S. and the general outcry against violent behavior. Violence is not tolerated, except in self-defense, and even then the nature of the defending behavior comes into question in the court of law. Socially, if violence were not a big deal, it would not be considered newsworthy, whether on the personal level (A talking privately with B) or on the national level.Also, I didn’t imply that anyone would act with physical violence. You inferred that’s what I meant. In actuality, I was asking the readers here to be honest with themselves and ask whether they would have actually resorted to physical violence - it’s a lot easier to do than we’d like to believe.I think that at our basest, we are all evil, mean, violent people striving to be kind and good, or at least, trying not to be physically violent and abusive. Why is that? What makes us legislate against violence? What makes society want to remove violent people from among our midst? It would make for an interesting humanities research paper; I’m sure someone(s) will have written about it, so I’ll have to look them up.Fillyjonk - Please take a deep breath, because I know this is going to tick you off. But if you consider what I’m trying to say, I think it’ll make sense:It’s ironic (or intentional?) that you would encourage people (Estrella and myself, at a minimum) to stop reading a blog that they appreciate because they can’t handle the verbal abuse and insults in the midst of a discussion on domestic violence. I’ve heard that a big part of why women stay with abusive men is because they feel like outside of the abuse, their lives are OK. They have a roof over their heads, food on the table (unless that’s part of the abuse), a home for their children, and when he isn’t abusive, he and she get along just fine and have some fun times.Similarly, I really enjoy reading this blog because it provides me with things to think about that I don’t get anywhere else. Most of the posters and commenters here have thoughts and ideas that I encounter nowhere but here. I enjoy the discussions on being fat, debunking fat-related myths, issues regarding fatness, etc., because I can relate. I’m challenged by the discussions on race, politics, feminist theory, gender issues, etc., because I am unfamiliar with them. In everything, I benefit by reading this blog.However, I don’t benefit from the “bitchy-ness,” either toward myself or others, but since I fully comprehend that it’s part of the default setting here, and I’ve weighed everything in the balance, for all the reasons I listed in the previous paragraph, I stay. What you have said to me and others like me is “if you don’t like it, leave.” But where would we go? Where would we find all of the good stuff we get here? The situation reminds me of how I felt when I lived at home. I would have liked to escape the abuse, but I had no options for relocating and surviving on my own, so I stayed until an opportunity opened up.So although this blog and everything involved is completely and utterly removed from a domestic violence situation, I see similarities. Maybe that’s because of our default human nature? Who knows. But I like this blog, and I intend to keep reading it. 
That got me banned. (I checked.) It's sad, really, because having a group where everyone agrees with everyone else loses out on the benefits of debate. But I find it oh, so, ironic that someone AGREED with what I said. In fact, Anita from the previous comment, agreed! Elidhe agreed, too. Read on:
"Anita at 5:37 pm (and Bald Soprano at 5:48) - But can I rule out the possibility that, in a moment of rage, I’d hit someone? I’d like to think that I would never be violent. But I can’t. What I can do is continue to deal with feelings of anger and violence, and pray that it remains locked inside. I think along with acknowledgment that we might all end of with a partner that is violent, some of us need to also consider that we might end up the abuser, and why it is that we don’t."
My greatest fear, I think. I know for a fact that I have been abusive to my partner and my children, particularly my eldest, and it’s one of the things that’s hardest to cope with.
I know by now you're either shaking your head at me for wasting my breath or you're shaking your head at my ignorance. I fully acknowledge my ignorance in these matters. I don't know how to "play with the big dogs" when it comes to feminist theory and politics because they aren't my forte. Which is part of why I return to Shapely Prose - I'm trying to learn so I can understand. Because while I don't encounter much of this stuff in Lancaster County, these issues ARE part of the world at large. Far be it from SP, though, to encourage education.
Cathy, on February 26th, 2009 at 2:13 am Said:
"I’m just saying, couldn’t we take it down a notch and use some kindness? I realize this isn’t my domain, but it is a community I typically respect and enjoy"
That’s nice and all, but here’s the thing: last I checked, the purpose of this community isn’t education. On the other hand, one of its central purposes is providing an open forum for a pretty heavily discriminated-against segment of our society to air their thoughts without allowing or legitimizing the discriminating bullshit. That may include people making honest mistakes from time to time.
For instance, if I walked in and said ‘Hey, what’s the big deal about fat acceptance? Women should just get off their asses and exercise!’ I’d also get booed out of the room, not educated. Because this is not an education center, and it is not the responsibility of the oppressed to educate, or even be nice to, everyone ignorant who crosses their paths.
Education is good. Education is helpful. In fact, in some ways, it WOULD be better if everyone had been nice and explanatory to Rhonwyyn. But enforcing that kind of behavior would mean that this community wouldn’t allow the same freedom of expression that it does, which would be a loss as well. Women are told from childhood that they need to spend their lives being nice and understanding and helpful- and I think it’s MUCH more important that we have a community where those unfair rules aren’t imposed than that one or two people don’t get edu-ma-cated.
Particularly since I heard a lot of ’stop being mean! women aren’t supposed to be mean, they’re supposed to be nice and understanding! be nice and understanding!’ in the request to be nicer. Consider: would the same comment have been made if this community was mostly made up of male posters?
Yeah, didn’t think so.
One of the mods and blog owners then posted this reply:
fillyjonk, on February 26th, 2009 at 7:24 pm Said:
"No, I meant that if you banned them, it would make it even clearer to them that this is the wrong place for them."
Yeah, I can see that! :) Kate talked a little above about our benefit-of-doubt calculation, but just for future reference, if you think someone should be banned and we don’t seem to be banning them, absolutely let us know. A preponderance of complaints will certainly tip the scales against someone if we’re trying to decide whether they’re thick-but-educable or deliberately stirring shit.
But, but, I thought the blog wasn't about being educated.
Oy.
So, if you've managed to read this far, what do you think? Do YOU understand what I was saying in the comments on the blog? If you do, am I on the right track, or have I totally missed the point? Also, what blogs do you enjoy reading?
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